tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441020117205433950.post3760653995367309569..comments2023-11-04T23:31:40.392-10:00Comments on got windmills?: PNN EDITORIAL- VOTE FOR ONLY SULLIVAN AND STOKES IN KIUC ELECTIONS:Andy Parxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15398587036690312685noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441020117205433950.post-87585807074186379132008-03-05T19:37:00.000-10:002008-03-05T19:37:00.000-10:00$83,000??????must have been a hell of a profit mar...$83,000??????<BR/><BR/>must have been a hell of a profit margin. Borders on theft.<BR/><BR/>A package system to make 750 KW/month is about $25K (I got a quote). Batteries would add another $15K. Installation at ground level. $5K?? Oh, I forgot. Need $25K for a down payment on a Hummer.<BR/><BR/>You're still investing $45K to make $300/month or $3600/year or 8% on investment. Pretty crappy return since if you borrowed the money at 6% to buy it in the first place you've only got 2% to try to pay back the capital (never get there).<BR/><BR/>As for $150 here or there. That's all well and good. But why in the hell would you spend 10 times as much per unit of generation for home units when commercial scale units are available, work better and would have pros running them? Ground level windmills are a joke unless you live on a ridge in Kalaheo.<BR/><BR/>I want 6-8 cts/kwhr power not 40 cts/kwhr power. <BR/><BR/>see<BR/><BR/>http://windenergy.com/documents/spec_sheets/0370_skystream_spec.pdf<BR/><BR/>small pdf.<BR/><BR/>check the power graph. Below 15 MPH you get squat power. The feds did a study with an anemometer in Anahola back in 1993/4 (IIRC). Average speed at 60 ft elevation was 12-13 MPH. Will be less the lower you go. (usually a 1/7th power function is used). And power is a cube function of windspeed. <BR/><BR/>Net metering of wind or solar is not co-generation. Cogeneration is usually when people make electricity and also heat for say water heating for a big laundry or to heat large complexes in cold climates. Co-generation involves classic thermal power generation, not wind/solar. May work for our resorts but not so much at home. We're not going to be installing home diesel generators. not to mention oil for a home system is just as risky as for an industrial system.<BR/><BR/>And the installer might want to catch up with the times. Sunpower is up in the low 20's on efficiency.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441020117205433950.post-25292202281775465272008-03-05T15:21:00.000-10:002008-03-05T15:21:00.000-10:00"...deny us a low-cost home owned renewable altern..."...deny us a low-cost home owned renewable alternatives."<BR/>Give me a break Parx. I have installed cogen and large photo-voltaic systems; they are expensive and clearly out of reach for the average homeowner. For instance an $83,000 photo-voltaic system cannot offset all of the energy used by a family of four in an average home. The payback is 10-15 years---hardly a wise use of scarce funds. Moreover, the leading photovoltaic panels (Samsung) are only 17% efficient, at best.<BR/>You, Stokes, Sullivan and the other pie in the sky dreamers are economically illiterate and grossly ignorant about energy production. If all the alternatives you champion were cost efficient and economical there would be no need for all the hoorah---people would demand the systems and producers would jump to meet the demand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441020117205433950.post-76009052325927920942008-03-05T09:35:00.000-10:002008-03-05T09:35:00.000-10:00$150 a month is nothing to sneeze at on the indivi...$150 a month is nothing to sneeze at on the individual level and 150 plus 150 plus 150... <BR/><BR/>But the point is that none of these generation devices are either or, as the corporate model says. Co-generation is not welfare. It encourages more co-generation and decreases the need to expensive expansion of corporate model generation so bills would remain stable as long as co-generation remains stable or increases.<BR/><BR/>Yes- solving a lot of the problems is a big task- but doing nothing will double our bills in no time flat as has happened over the last couple of years and until the model is reversed it will keep happening as oil climbs exponentially in price<BR/><BR/>And storage is not an insurmountable problem.Andy Parxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15398587036690312685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441020117205433950.post-33182802781463342062008-03-04T21:20:00.000-10:002008-03-04T21:20:00.000-10:00I voted this way before reading this.But you have ...I voted this way before reading this.<BR/><BR/>But you have some serious errors of fact and logic here Andy.<BR/><BR/>Home windmills are a turd compared to commercial scale units.<BR/><BR/>The 2 KW units being flogged cost about $20K installed. With a 35-50 ft pole, they are just too close to the ground to do that much, but even at full rating they cost $10K/kw. I figure even at my windy site, we'd only cover about $150/month worth of power. Pretty lousy.<BR/><BR/>a real turbine produces 2-4 MW or 1000X as much power at full rating. Just so you know, if you google around, you can find refurbished units at below $200K. Now the pole and foundations plus intertie lines to the grid won't be free, but you've got $19.8 million bucks per "real" turbine in hand compared to 1000 of the home units. The produce power at 6-8 cts/KwHr on the mainland vs our 25cts here for diesel/naphtha burning.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, since a real turbine is up 300 ft, you get higher and steadier wind so your amount of production as a % of rated power is much much higher. Wind speed steadily increases with elevation and you get out of the tree/building turbulence that robs power.<BR/><BR/>Also, since you probably can't go beyond 20% wind due to its variability you don't need more than 10-20 of them TOTAL. Not acres and acres. Those peashit units from the 70's are no longer what people use. If they install a real storage system like a pumped hydro storage system, you could install more.<BR/><BR/>We cannot have half the island on net metering anyway. Just consider that in daytime the KIUC production would be basically off or worse there'd be a surplus of electricity with no way to store it. Then from 4-11 PM, when something like 35-40% of our useage occurs KIUC would have to provide 100%. <BR/><BR/>Then do the billing math. Half would pay nothing. The other half would have to carry the entire fixed burden of the existing system. Their bills basically double. Net metering is good to stimulate things, but everybody can't be on welfare.<BR/><BR/>Agree 100% that the current directors are basically controlled by big land and big business. Try asking who sat on the original long term capital study committee (a Dick Cheney energy committee special if I ever saw one). The big developers/land holders made damn sure there would be no wind mills in the view planes near Poipu's $1 million half acres.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com